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Liz: Good morning. I'd like to acknowledge we are on Treaty One territory, the traditional gathering place of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene people and the traditional homeland of the Métis people.

CARFAC has engaged in a research and consultation initiative to create an Indigenous Protocol, Intellectual Cultural Property resource guide and toolkit for the visual arts sector, similar to the one that was done in Australia. We aim to provide respectful protocols around the use and protection of First Nations, Inuit and Métis visual art and culture material. This includes information on who has the rights to reproduce, present and reference traditional, contemporary images, stories and symbols. The toolkit will be shared on the website, Indigenous Protocols dot Art and it will include all of our podcast interviews, case studies and the materials will be available to our community members.

Today, we have joining us, Wilfred Buck. Wilfred Buck is from the Opaskwayak Cree Nation of northern Manitoba and currently works for the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre as a science facilitator. He has over 15 years of experience as an educator and expands on the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre's vision to bring a First Nations perspective to the sciences by doing what he is most passionate about: looking up at, and thinking about, the stars.

Through his research, which centers on Ininew star stories, Buck has found a host of information to interpret, analyse and identify. And what do these Ininew stories say about the stars? This is a question that drives and informs his star journey. The Canadian Teachers’ Federation has awarded Wilfred Buck with the 2018 Indigenous Educator Award, something that had made him somewhat incredulous upon hearing the news. Congratulations. Welcome Wilfred.

Wilfred: Morning.

Liz: You're also an artist, curator and writer. And in your curatorial and writing career, how do you go about engaging with Knowledge Keepers to extract and share those traditional stories?

Wilfred: Well, for, the research that I've done and I follow my peoples traditional value of traditional culture. And I participate in ceremony and I travel and I spend days at a time speaking with storytellers. Sometimes you go to a fasting camp, a fasting camp is anywhere from five to seven days.

And then you fast for four of those days without food, without water. And you pray, and you dream. And that's part of the process of the quest for that knowledge. And also, the Sundance. Again, that's probably about a two week process when you, when you make a commitment to go and ask for some guidance, because you got to help, you just don't go there and ask him, sit and watch, you go in there and you help. Because that's, what's expected. You're there. You do got to do something. You're not, you're not a passive observer.

And so when a person is requesting for that knowledge, you can't be passive observers. They have to be willing to participate in whatever's happening. You have to be willing to listen. That's one of the more, most key things is, is to be able to listen. And listen without thinking about a response that you're going to say, because somebody said something, but just sit there and listen.

Because sometimes the Elders, when they speak, you ask them a question, then they're not going to tell you that's a right away. They're going to tell you a story. And in that story, there'll be an answer, but you just have to wait and listen for it. Sometimes, when young, especially young people, when they're inpatient and they ask a question, then the Elders start telling the story and I hear some of them interrupt the Elder.

What is this got to do with the question I'm asking? And the process, there's a process to it, and they have to find that that patience, but that's part of the processes that the patience.

Liz: Can you share some of your, experience that you're going to be having with your curation for the star stories at the science museum?

Wilfred: Well, one of the things that, I was asked to do, I was, I was doing a little. A little project with some of the schools and, pertains to, travelling portable planetarium and, some of the research, that we found about the stars. So we used the portable planetarium and I thought it'd be a good idea to actually get out and see the stars without the, without the planetarium.

And so we set up a, camp just on north of the city and in a big open field. And usually in the fall or spring time, we have a two or three day observing time where we, we are open to the night sky and we sit out there anywhere from 30 to 100 people. At night looking at the sky, then we have a laser pointer, I have a laser pointer I use, and I started telling stories of what the stars, what various stars are up there at that time.

And sometimes it's anywhere from four to six hours. But we also have ceremony involved, for those people that want to come and participate. There's a sweat lodge involved and there's a feast involved and there's a pipe ceremony involved. And so we do that, we do those protocols before we actually start sitting down and listening to the star and watching the sky.

And in that process, in that process of doing that, the, a lot of the knowledge that has come through that is again, in relation to, in relation to the, to the sky, all the, all the ceremony that's done is in relation to the sky. All of the ceremony that's done is reflective about what's happening in the sky. And it's mirrored with what we do down here.

Liz: And I understand you're writing another book?

Wilfred: Yes, in the process of our writing, actually two books. Well, I shouldn't say I just finished one. It's in the editing process right now. And it's a sort of like autobiography of my time on this earth. And it's supposed to be, we're supposed to have a book launch in the spring of this year.

And then I'm also, I want to do a totally redo the Tipiskawi Kisik: Night Sky Star Stories, with new artwork and a whole bunch of new stories. So we're just in a process of doing that right now.

Liz: And when you were looking at the stories, where the stories, are they just from a Opaskwayak Cree Nation or they just Cree stories?

Wilfred: Well, the majority of them are, are Cree stories. And they're from all over they're right from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and into Northern Ontario. So it is and even, some from, from Montana, from the Rocky Boy Cree Nation. So there is a wide range because a lot of the ceremony that's done, I attend the ceremony and.

Some of the songs that are sung, they come from all over the place from Rocky Boy, from Saddle Lake, from Mustawasha, Saskatchewan from Northern Ontario. So they're from all over. And a lot of the things about that is that a lot of the stories, star stories, in the various different nations. Like Anishinaabe, Dakota, they have similar stories, they might not be identical, in the telling, but the general juice of it is the same. They just use specifics that are, that coincide with their environmental area.

So I came across a story about Mistahi-maskwa, the big bear, and how might people tell that story. And then how, in the planes, when you're in the Rocky Mountains, how they tell that story, and then the Mi'kmaq have a similar story and they tell that story and each, each of those areas tell the story different because they have different environments. And then you're also various animals that are indigenous to that environment. So that's the animals they use.

Liz: And is there a Protocol around sharing those stories from the other communities? Or is it because they're Cree, but just different geographic areas that there's not necessarily a protocol in place?

Wilfred: Well, the original Protocols when I started was that there's certain, these stories should be shared in the wintertime, because one of the things is, in the wintertime, they say that's when, Popawanigita was up and Popawanigita was the winter keeper and that's a, that group of stars associated with Orion. So Orion is a seasonal constellation. So when, in the springtime, in the fall time, he starts coming up, then he's with us all winter long. And then as it starts getting warmer Orion and catches up to the sun. So he's out when the sun is out in the summertime, so we can't see him. So when Orion is out, we call him, like I said, the winter keeper, but we also call them, Wesakechak and Wesakechak is the trickster, the teacher.

So when they were out, the stories were told and in traditional times that was the case. But, I guess the idea behind that was in a wintertime in traditional times, when it got dark and in winter, it got dark very early and it stayed dark for 16 hours a day sometimes. And so what do you do with kids for 16 hours in the nighttime? And one of the things was, they told stories. They, they'd have this big, huge teepee. They put about maybe two or three teepees together and they have one area at one side opened. And then three sides enclosed. And, the kids would sit on the enclosed area and the Elder would stand out in front of the open area. And then they were pointing to the stars and they would start telling stories.

And as they did that, the various stars would come up because the sky is of course going, stars are going across the sky and they would tell these stories and this, this happened ongoing process throughout the winter. And then at various times the Elder would stop and he'd ask, okay, which star system am I talking about, what is this associated with? And then the kids would have to repeat what they remember about those stories and what they associated with the various teachings. So this, so the young people growing up, they, this became tradition. We tell the stories in winter because of this, this process.

Now that we're, we're in a different type of situation and that we have a portable dome. That, that's how my, getting around, the traditional protocols of of telling stories in the, in the wintertime only, because we have a, these are different times. And being that these are different times. We have a portable planetarium, which we can go in and we can put up to sky the winter keeper, and we can tell the stories. But also that being that we're in the 21st century, a lot of those things, we have artificial light now, so, and we have all these other, other distractions. So we have to grab the inquisitive nature of the youth. And this is one of the ways we do it. Otherwise they'll be distracted and they are distracted, by the phones, by the TV, by all the things that are out there. So we have to just adapt to the times, which is what our people have done all the time. Just adapted to the times, but you'll find great people that are traditional people that say, "Oh no you can't tell the stories, you can only tell the stories in wintertime."

But a lot of, a lot of these are Protocols that I find for my, this is coming from my perspective, is a lot of these Protocols and what they call tradition, this is traditional, it's only traditional because the historical trauma that happened to our people. An example of, the sweat lodge, [Cree word], when we started this, going to the sweat lodge back in, 19, in the mid-seventies, they were told that, only men went to the sweat lodge. And so all the young men went to the sweat lodge and, as that process kept going on and on, and the woman wanted to attend. And so some, some of the some of the teachers said, okay, well, some women can attend. And other said, no, no, this is traditional stuff. But when you look into that, that history, one of the things that happened is when our ceremonies got outlawed and they had to go underground in order for them to be performed.

Then what would happen is on the reserves at night, the men would go into the bush to do these ceremonies. And while the women stayed at home, they chose to stay home to watch over the house, and make sure the kids were safe. And so the women stayed home and the men went out and the young people growing up and seeing this, they said, ah, this is, this is the tradition. And so through that process, it became tradition that men would do this and the women would stay home. But in reality, if you listen to any stories, they talk about the matriarchal society and the women were the ones that pretty much had the saw, in the last saw in whatever it was, it had to be done.

And even now, I'm finding that from listening to the star stories. And see how they're reflected in the ceremony, every ceremony that's done by my people is done to honour the woman, every ceremony. So that says that the women have, have a very strong place in, in, whatever happens. And so these traditions that come up they're there, they're just adapting to the times. And so we have to adapt to the times.

Liz: Well, and that really brings us right back around to the Traditional Knowledge and intellectual, the Indigenous Intellectual Knowledge that happens and how these stories have been changing, through the times and which, which stories can be shared and which stories cannot be shared. And then how is an artist?

They would even be able to start that engagement process if they wanted to do, an image or something that, you know, has been deemed traditional to be able to find out how they can share that story and take it into that next, I guess, generation into that next generation.

Wilfred: Yeah, well, one of the ways that example, this past summer, I was approached by a young lady in soccer, and she's doing a big mural. I think her last name is Winterstanding. And she's doing this big, huge mural about, about the four directions and about the teachings, and she'd asked about a sweat lodge and she never attended a sweat lodge. And so I said, okay, well, you want to learn about a sweat lodge, then you come to the sweat lodge and you'll participate in the ceremony.

And so she did that. And she had great prior to that, she had dreams about this. And then when she came, those dreams became reality, right, right in front of her eyes. And she was, she was very happy. And then she sat down with my wife and I, and she talked about what she was wanting to do, and she wanted to be respectful about it. And she wanted to participate in the ceremonies and she could use that image of the sweat lodge in that mural.

I said, yeah, well, you can, because you're doing, you're doing this process in a very respectful way and you're participating, you're willing to participate in this ceremony. You're willing to learn. And the other thing with that is that, is that I used to work with an Elder named, Don Cardinal. And I'm working with him from about 19, 1999 about. I'd met him. He's the one who, was one of the people that established that a sweat lodge at Thunderbird House, right on Main and Higgins, right downtown Winnipeg.

And, he had that going. And so one day I was coming back from a ceremony and I happened to drive by that corner. And I saw smoke coming up from behind the building. So I got curious, I went back there and there was a Don Cardinal and his wife and they were getting the sweat lodge ready. So I asked him what they were doing. And he said, get in the sweat lodge ready? Gonna have a sweat.

So I looked around and it was just two of them working. And I looked around and it was just the two of them working. And I said, well, where's your helpers? And he said, well, don't have no helpers, just me. I said, well, mind if I help you. And he said, okay, sure. And so I, from then on, I started working with him.

But during that process, one on one time we were getting a lodge ready and a reporter from a Free Press came there and he was taking pictures. He was walking around taking pictures and. And, I approached him and I said, what are you doing? And he said, well, I'm a reporter and I'm taking pictures because we heard about the sweat lodge and, and we're going to do a story on it. So I chased them away. I said, you can't take a picture. You can't take pictures here. You gotta be respectful of that. And so he went away and then after, after the sweat lodge was over, Don called me over and he sat down and he said, I seen you, talking to that reporter and you chased him away. I said, yeah. He's taking pictures and he's being nosy. And I thought he was being disrespectful to you.

And, he said, yeah, well maybe that's the case, but you got to understand this also at this place here, right in the middle of the city. If you look around for blocks and blocks and blocks, we have a lot of our young people living on these streets. A lot of our young people will never set foot outside this city. This will be their existence. In, especially in the north end and on the streets in the central area. And that's all they'll know, and they'll know gangs, they'll know crime, they'll know drugs, they'll know all these things very intimately. But they know nothing about their culture. So if at one point they're looking at the Free Press and they see a picture of a sweat lodge, then maybe it'll start them thinking, Hey, what's this? Where is this? I'd like to try that out.

And, and in that process, some of them will come and maybe in that process, some of them will leave those streets. And I said, okay, that's cool, why don't you come take pictures all you want. [Laughing] That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's what I feel, you know?

And so this young lady that approached and asked if she could put that sweat lodge on this big mural, I said, sure, go ahead. Again, to the same ideas that young people that are looking at that picture and they see that sweat lodge, maybe, maybe they'll start asking questions.

Liz: I think that's a really great example of how Protocols have changed over their most recent decades, that now can be shared because it's not just about this specific community. It's also trying to engage others to come back to the community. Interesting. Well, thank you so much for all of this Wilfred. It's been really interesting, very engaging and I, again, I've learned much. Thank you.

Wilfred: You're welcome.