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Liz: Hi, I'm Liz Barron and I'm the project manager for CARFAC's Indigenous Intellectual Property toolkit. And CARFAC has brought together a group of artists and curators, academics to look at the issues around Indigenous intellectual property and how best CARFAC can support Indigenous artists across the country.

For this podcast, we'll be speaking with David Garneau and David has been involved with the project for, since its inception last year. David is the associate professor and visual arts department at the University of Regina where he teaches painting, drawing and criticism. He was born and raised in Edmonton and he received his BFA in painting and drawing and an MA in English from the University of Calgary. He also taught at the Alberta college of art and design for five years prior to moving to Regina in 1999.

So welcome David, and thank you for participating in the CARFAC podcast. So, within your own art practice. Can you tell us a little bit about how Indigenous intellectual property has impacted your work and how you move through it within that process?

David: Yeah. I'm going to start with a slightly theoretical approach, just to explain how I understand myself in these different spaces. So I divide Indigenous art into three categories. One is the traditional, the other one is the Aboriginal, and then the other third one is the Indigenous. And they don't need those names, but it's just a helpful way of understanding.

So traditional art doesn't usually even have that name, you know, art with that word, an English word, is that European concept, that is in the Renaissance and changes. It used to mean craft. It has all kinds of meanings, even in the European sense, but especially the notion of something divorced from use, you know, taken away from use, taken away from ceremony, something taken away from daily life and put in a special space. So a gallery or other kinds of collections, that's a Western concept and really, it’s quite different from traditional Indigenous ways of thinking.

So I like to begin by separating traditional cultural works that emanate from a particular territory, tradition, even set of bodies. And those are usually objects made for circulation within that community. They're usually not bought and sold by money though. Sometimes they are, they usually belong to a gift economy or a Potlatch economy. They can be given as gifts and traded with other folks, but its meanings come from and circulate within that community. So that's really, really important. An interesting part of that, for instance, of that tradition is that it's different, so you can't have a copyright, anything that is true for all Nations. Each Nation has its own Protocols. So understanding that context is really, really important. It's important for a person to know whether they're working within a traditional mode or not because the traditional mode has its own gatekeepers.

So there, the Elders and Knowledge Keepers who allowed something to be passed along, or, and sometimes you have to earn it. There's all kinds of rules that are specific to that community. They echo in every other community, but the actual Protocols, meanings and locations are in that space. So who gets to make it, who something belongs to in terms of a story or a Knowledge or new nature of style, that's all within that community. So that's its own thing. What's really important is, for instance, sort of a test of whether it's traditional or not, is that they're non-critical in the sense that no one writes reviews and criticism about this kind of stuff and it doesn't have any meaning. What, what someone from outside the community thinks about the work, they can like it or not like it, but you're not going to have a critical response. So it really doesn't belong to the art world in that way. Now those objects can be taken by Aboriginal people or Aboriginal category or Indigenous category or dominant culture, and they can be put into these other places, but then they have totally different meanings. You know, if they're part of someone's collection or something they become accustomed customer or outfit or something, they have a whole different meaning. So to me, the second category is a lot of art or almost all of art produced after contact is Aboriginal. And for that, I mean the art market of various sorts, whether it's in Santa Fe or wherever, so it's not traditional, not in traditional settings, it belongs to a different cash exchange thing. And most of those works aren't made for non-local people. And so they're part of their trade used to be called trade goods. And that's the bulk of so-called Native art. Is that, that.

Now that can be heavily influenced by traditional and people will have the same Protocols that apply, but there's a lot of gray area there. And so those people aren't necessarily. You know, operating as a Cree member of the Papaschase tribe or new channel or whatever they are seen as artists, you know, that tie with the community, traditional community, but outside and in those places, in that category, you can make all kinds of artistic innovations that belong to you. But there's a really tough line, whether those things are belonging to the tribal to the Nation or not, or the tradition. So there's all kinds of tension.

And then for me, the third category is Indigenous and that's someone who operates in the Indigenous artwork, but also follows Protocols and criticism and so on among other Indigenous people around the world. So there are Indigenous curators who go across cultures and so on, it might only show Indigenous artwork for many, many nations. So each category has its own critical structure, copyright, all of those things. And so the trick in coming up with this kind of document is making sure to acknowledged these three categories and the reason being, for instance, when the Australians did it about 15 years ago. What I would call Indigenous artists. So these are folks living in the cities and they have MFAs. They thought that the document was patronizing because they were worried about basically, tribal people or desert people being ripped off by white people. And artists were suggesting that, that suggested that they didn't have agencies that were equal with regular, you know, dominant culture artists. So each one's quite different.

So when you asked me that question, there are times that I paint as an Indigenous artist and, I don't really have too much concern of what, what traditional, people have to say about the work. I want to have freedom. I remember bringing my work to Bob Boyer, oh my gosh, this is almost 20 years ago and it was around at Batoche, paintings about Batoche and I brought him in there and the first thing he said to me and coming into the space and see what I was doing, he says, I hope you're not asking for permission. And I kinda thought I was because, you know, there were scenes there that his relatives would be involved and so on, but he really was the opinion that were in the Indigenous mode were informed by tradition and by people's thoughts. But you have to operate as an artist alone without that.

But I still felt even then, because I was telling stories or showing stories that were more than myself that were about the Métis culture and particularly history. I did need some, if not permission, guidance and he offered guidance, but he wasn't about to say yes or no. And to me that was really important, but I would go to him as a Métis senior artist. Rather than at that point, bring that work to Métis Elders who, I didn't know if they would be able to understand, what I was getting at. And certainly if they felt like they had to get permission or not, it might feel awkward. Cause it's, it's outside of the regular rotocol. Long winded answer.

But my last bit was recently, I've been working on two projects, the Tawatinâ Bridge public art project in Edmonton has been going on for four years now. And all the works are done. These are 400 paintings that are going to go on the ceiling of this long bridge in the middle of Edmonton. And there I had freehand as an artist, as an Indigenous artist, as a Métis artist, but I really want to be a Métis artist. And so I consulted community. I showed them what I was working on, the Papaschase Creek folks, as well as the Edmonton Métis and I don't think I was looking for permission. But I was, as I was asking, asking for permission or actually guidance for certain stories that they wanted up there. And for instance, I would show images and they would say, you know, tell me a little bit about a story and then I'd go paint that idea. I’d bring it back and then folks would say, well, now that I can see, you could illustrate that. Let me tell you this other story. And so there's this back and forth.

And yet at one point, Jerry Saddleback, who was the main advisor, I kept showing him the work and at one point you said to me, David, you've already got permission in the sense that you're doing things in a good way. You don't have to bring every image back to me. And Elders in my experience, don't tell you not to do something though. There are some taboos and considerations. They want to know what you're going to produce, right? They don't want to restrict you. At the same time, there are errors and I'm always cautious about making mistakes. So is it permission? It's I think it's the mentorship and guidance. But also they're relying on artists to produce something new. That's not just traditional. So anyways, that's a complex thing. So in each section I'm doing something different.

Liz: For the consultation process in Edmonton, was it just with the Métis community in Edmonton or did it include a larger Métis audience?

David: Well, this is why I see the work is not exactly traditional, but it covers all three areas because what I was showing them were things specific to that. So I'm only talking about that, literally that river and the site around it. Not all far-flung and not the history of the Métis. There's no Louis Riel. There's no Gabriel Dumont. I don't know if he'll be one of them Riel didn't, but I don't even think Gabriel Dumont ever visited the city. Right. So it's about the people there as they understand themselves, but to give you an indication.

So I had a panel of Elders, Métis Elders. We met around the table. And I asked them, I said, you know, I've done some research, I've done some paintings. There's going to be 400 of these paintings in there. What do we need to see? And they said, we've done our work. And they brought these images and stuff and they said, we need this, this, and then I showed my slideshow and I show I did everything they already said. Cause those things, we all know you, got the red river cart. If you got this, you got that. And so what that required them to do is think even harder and say, wow, first of all, they didn't even believe there would be Métis content. But wow. So what more can we put in there? And it became very collaborative, but at the end of the day, I had to do a lot of things on my own because the Métis there didn't have a visual sense of themselves much that exceeded the 19th century. What does it mean to be a contemporary Métis person?

So that's what artists do, but if you work strictly in the traditional mode, you're gonna reach a wall, right. Because you're just going to be. Replicating things that already exist with some nuance, say, you know, traditional mode, but the Métis also don't have strong protocols around making, you know Métis have always thought themselves of independent. So it doesn't, it's not the same as First Nations. But even the First Nations that I work with, they don't have the same restrictions, you know, that it varies, especially when you're trying to produce something new. But if someone had said don't do this. So I was told for instance, from the Cree there, they don't want black, so it has to be a bluey black. Oh, well, that's interesting. I mean, I knew that, but I heard it again and again, so it wasn't just a thing that was of historical or whatever interests it had to not be there. And so the particularly Cree things that I was permitted to make images of, I made sure not to include straight black.

But there are many other things like that subtle things. And for me in that mode, I'm making something for, and with the community. It's not a personal expression, there's personal expression there, but that's not as primary mode. So it fits more in the traditional mode for those following those rules. So if a Métis Elder came in there and, and took offence, I'd have to listen to them, you know, and, and if there was everyone agreed that that painting would have to come down and say, or, you know, But there are differences too, because there is a Métis Elder, I'll call her an Elder, a Knowledge Keeper who said the Métis didn't live in teepees. And I have photos with Métis known Métis people with a red river cart and teepees. So Elders or Knowledge Keepers can be wrong. You know, it was a matter of fact. And so you have to ask a few people. So anyways, that's my experience.

Liz: And that process was four years with the engagement with the Métis community throughout those four years?

David: No, there was, met with Audrey Dreaver, I think once or twice and a historian there, then the panel. And then more recently when most of the paintings were finished, I brought them back again. It was a different group though, were actually a younger group and they had a very different point of view, which I thought was fascinating. But it wasn't, again like Bob, it wasn't a matter of, okay. This one, yes. This one, no, this one here. And so I feel like I've been given a lot of freedom at the same time. Each of the lessons I can go back there and explain each one why I made that choice or not. And so it's there's some autonomy, but mostly it's an expression of the will of that group. But for instance, if the Métis and the Cree don't get along and that Métis don't want the Cree thing up there. Well, that's where I'll take my autonomy, you know, because that's not strictly a Métis work. It's a, it's we'll, call it following a number of traditions, you know?

Liz: How'd you feel that this toolkit will be able to act as a resource for other artists?

David: You know, one of the most important things I thought there I really liked was the section under intellectual property, where they're talking about the five different types. I think that helps organize thoughts a lot, you know, differentiating copyright, trademark, patent, industrial design and trade secret, especially those first three are very important. A lot of people, there are other things to talk about, so I really liked that the group agreed to do the appropriation, misappropriation. Because there, appropriation just means taking and there all art is based on taking all art is, are pretty much all art except for strict formalist art is a reproduction, you know, interpretation of the world.

And I've argued within other papers that all Indigenous art is realism in the sense that it's, it has a reference to reality rather than a strictly abstract or non-objective, style and everything. Even if it's just patterns, that's got colours and forms that are representative of something. Anyways, the importance of these differences are to know that, oh, I know what I was going to say. Sorry. A lot of people are so afraid that they're not allowed to make copies or make reference, so they have to do so knowingly. And so if they're not interpreting something, if they're actually stealing something, then it's not taking, it's a misappropriation. And a lot of folks feel like that. I mean, there's this old sense that Indigenous traditions are dead or people are no longer existing or these Knowledge Keepers still don't have this knowledge.

And so they feel that they can steal this stuff, willy nilly, without there being a keeper attached. And more and more, the Keepers are speaking up and saying, you know, that's ours. So that's an empowering thing. And knowing that there is even within the Western tradition, there are languages for that, you know, trade secrets of a sort or copyright. But there still has to be an Indigenous category that explains this sort of cultural knowledge and things that require negotiation. And to me, that's key, it's not a schedule. There'll be Protocols for negotiation. The sensitivities there are really, really important.

Liz: And so through this process, how did you find being in the advisory with communities from across the country?

David: Yeah. I mean, so early on, I can't remember the woman's name, but she was a traditional maker and the community she supported was of traditional makers. And so when she was hearing about people talking about galleries and exhibitions and, and all of that, it just didn't ring well, the next when I explained the model she said, oh, so I don't even have to worry about those guys. And I tend to this, then it has meanings within itself. That's really helped. And it made sense.

So I had an experience, oh boy, it was 12 years ago. It was an exhibition in Australia and it was called Cultural Warriors and it brought together the traditional people and the MFA people and they, they didn't see eye-to-eye and they didn't mix because they're making their works that are just totally different. And so you need Protocols that work for each. And if somebody is working in a, you know, a Western tradition exclusively. We shouldn't imagine that they are going to be held to account by traditional people. I remember when I first moved to Regina maybe 20 years ago or so we were on a board and the Sask Arts board on the jury and the Sask Arts board wanted to bring in Elders to the jury process. And a senior Indigenous artist said no way, unless the non-Indigenous folks bring in priests. You know, there's a such a cultural divide.

Now, if it's strictly traditional, that makes some sense. But you know the, the craft of art, you need Knowledge Keepers rather than Elders, anyways. So for me, this manual will be very helpful to people to understand where they're at and what their needs are, and they can be curious about those other things. But they don't have any in play in there. But I also think a lot of traditional people will be able to see what things that they thought only belonged in community or only in trade for low prices to white folks will suddenly have this other opportunity.

I'm curating an exhibition in Montreal and Montreal Indigenous biennale and half my artists are beaders and not all of them would have been comfortable in these spaces before. And when they can see what kind of prices they can command, but also see the other work that's being produced at that level. Suddenly they're thinking, wow, if they can do that, then I can do this, and I've got a place for it. And it's a different marketplace. So that's why these categories are helpful. Just so we know what our audience is, what the rules are, the Protocols for each of those categories.

Liz: And congratulations on curating the exhibition in Montreal, the artists. So far what I've seen have been amazing.

David: Ain't they amazing? And I was, I don't want to say completely unknown in Montreal, but mostly unknown. And also I brought in, I think maybe half or not quite half are Métis because Métis aren't recognized there and there's all a big conflict. I want to show them what Métis culture is not just was. And I think all of that's had a big impact. Yeah. So far I hear really good things.