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Liz: Good morning. I'd like to acknowledge we are on Treaty One Territory, the traditional gathering place of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene people and the traditional homeland of the Métis people.

CARFAC has engaged in a research and consultation initiative to create an Indigenous Protocol, Intellectual Cultural Property resource guide and toolkit for the visual arts sector, similar to the one that was done in Australia. We aim to provide respectful protocols around the use and protection of First Nations, Inuit and Métis visual art and culture material. This includes information on who has the rights to reproduce, present and reference traditional, contemporary images, stories and symbols. The toolkit will be shared on the website, Indigenous Protocols dot Art and it will include all of our podcast interviews, case studies and the materials will be available to our community members.

Today, we have joining us, Wilfred Buck. Wilfred Buck is from the Opaskwayak Cree Nation of Northern Manitoba and currently works for the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre as a science facilitator. He has over 15 years of experience as an educator and expands on the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre's vision to bring a First Nations perspective to the sciences by doing what he is most passionate about: looking up at, and thinking about, the stars. Through his research, which centers on Ininew star stories, Buck has found a host of information to interpret, analyse and identify. And what do these Ininew stories say about the stars? This is a question that drives and informs his star journey. The Canadian Teachers’ Federation has awarded Wilfred Buck with the 2018 Indigneous Educator Award, something that had made him somewhat incredulous upon hearing the news. Congratulations. Welcome Wilfred.

Wilfred: Morning.

Liz: So, as CARFAC has been moving through the process of looking at Protocols, we're having these discussions around artists that are not within a community, galleries that exhibit art as well as museums that have artifacts within them. So we're looking to have a conversation about Protocols, so as an artist that is in an urban centre, one of the conversations that keeps coming up is how does an artist engage with an Elder within a community about the Protocols within that community? Can you share some stories?

Wilfred: In regard to approaching Knowledge Keepers and Elders, one of the first bits of Protocols that's been taught is that you have to pass tobacco, and so usually, a pouch of tobacco this is just a formality to let the Knowledge Keeper or Elder know you are interested in what is going to be said and you'll be respectful of what is going to be said. It's sort of like a contract, you pass that tobacco and if that Knowledge Keeper or Elder takes that tobacco then they’re accepting that responsibility of sharing what it is they’re being asked for to the best of their ability. So that's the very first thing.

Traditionally, this is done face-to-face, person-to-person, and for traditional people who follow the way, usually when they pass tobacco they pass also prayer cloths. Wźpināsona, we call them. Prayer flags, and they're usually about a meter of broadcloth of various colours depending on what's comfortable, what the person feels comfortable with giving and also a gift goes along with that. Depending on where the Elder is or how far he has to travel, how remote he is, how accessible the person is then that gift should reflect that. But also it should reflect what you feel that information, that is going to be shared, is worth and respectful of acknowledging. So there's those things that have to be considered.

In the last little while because of all the restrictions that are happening and the travel restriction and person-to-person restrictions for families, one of the things we've been trying to do is do all this process online, on Zoom. And so, what we've been doing is engaging the Elders or Knowledge Keepers and telling them that and showing that tobacco that we have and sometimes there's a sacred fire involved and we put the tobacco in the fire and then we tell the Knowledge Keeper or the Elder that we are going to be sending or that we're in that process of sending cloth and tobacco to them with the knowledge it's going to be shared. So this is the way we're approaching that right now.

At some point, the person who is going to be sharing gets that tobacco. But in the meantime, once you initialize that communication and make that commitment, saying you're going to pass that tobacco then at that time the knowledge is shared with the good intent that the tobacco will be forwarded and the cloth will be forwarded and the gifts will be forwarded. But again, they always prefer you be there in person, so you can pass that tobacco and talk to you a bit and get to know you. Because sometimes they don't know who you are - it's very important that they get to know who you are.

Liz: A question that comes up about tobacco often is where would one get this tobacco? Do they just go to the convenience store and buy tobacco or is there special tobacco that is available?

Wilfred: You can just go to a store and get a pouch of tobacco. Usually it's a pouch of tobacco. The reason I say that is because a pouch of tobacco, it tells a person that you're giving the tobacco to, that you put some thought into it and that you actually paid some money for it and were actually willing to do that. Because nowadays people are getting little pouches of tobacco and opening that up and making little Ziplock bags or cloth and they’re giving that and that says that you're not being too respectful with that tobacco but also the knowledge that you're asking. It shows that you're not willing to take that extra step.

Liz: I think that's really good information to have and especially for galleries that do exhibitions when they're looking for an Elder and they have to find tobacco, what the tobacco means and how they can use that tobacco. One of the other questions I had was, I'm very lucky in my community that I know Elders, but there are some artists that have been outside of the community for a long time or even a gallery that doesn't necessarily have any Indigneous staff. And so, how would they go about finding a community leader Elder, Cultural Knowledge Keeper within a community?

Wilfred: Well in that case where they're totally removed from the community and totally removed from the culture, then one of the things that has to be done is that they have to do earnest research about that. I don't just mean looking on the internet and finding a local Elder and go speaking with them, because there's a lot of people out there who say they're Elders when actually they’re self-made Elders.

So it's good that a person that's seeking this knowledge, that they do some research and go on to speak with three or four, five or six individuals and get to know them and feel comfortable with what they're saying and hear what other people are saying and saying about them. And once you find someone you feel comfortable with and easy to speak with then you can make that commitment because, especially people who are removed from the cultural, they just see an Elder on maybe on Facebook or something and they approach them and ask for all this knowledge and maybe the person doesn't have that knowledge in particular. So it takes a bit of research and a bit of commitment.

Liz: One of the questions that came up was how are the local political authorities connected within the culture, the cultural aspects of Protocols. Here in Manitoba, specific to First Nations, would a gallery or an artist go to the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and say I'm trying to find an Elder, I'm looking to do this project and I need research and information?

Wilfred: Yes, that would be a really great idea for someone who is totally removed from the culture to approach entities such as the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. Because they have their own spiritual advisors and they have a whole list of artists from the local community and from the surrounding outlying area. They also know how to get in touch with those people who are ceremonial people and they'll know what the process is.

Liz: One of the other things you had spoken about with the tobacco were the clothes, how does one know what kind of cloth to present?

Wilfred: Usually once you identify the person that you're going to be approaching you can ask them, “Is there any particular colour of cloth that you would like?” And if there isn't, then what we're usually told is whoever is purchasing the cloth just take your eyes and hold that tobacco and close your eyes for a minute and just meditate on that and you'll find the colours that are needed.

Liz: That’s so interesting. And the other was gift giving. So in that idea of presenting a gift, what kind of gifts would be presented to an Elder when this process is taking place?

Wilfred: Well there's a number of ways that you can approach that and it just depends on the situation. At ceremony, when tobacco is passed and prayer cloths are passed and certain things are asked, and the Elder comes through and acknowledges that and asks the grandmothers and grandfathers and they receive that knowledge then a gift usually it's things like blankets, various household items and food. And also depending on if the Elder has to travel, that has to be taken into account, and also maybe something a little for if they're at the ceremonial grounds. At the ceremonial grounds there's a lot of preparation that has to be made and a lot of helpers that have to be asked to come of their time and of their work and they have to be acknowledged. So just keep that in mind when you're passing, so there’s some monetary value associated with that. That's in regard to doing ceremonial work.

When organizations approach an Elder and ask for these things then the first thing that should be put in mind is the position of that entity in the community and the monetary award or offerings that they have. One of the things in the last three, four years that I'm telling people now is that at one point when an organization wants to speak with an Elder it passed tobacco and they'd say, “Here's a hundred dollars to come and speak.”

Meanwhile they'd have a meeting with, say a school division, a professional development meeting where there's teachers, and they'll pay thousands and thousands of dollars for a speaker to come and do a workshop with them. Meanwhile, they're giving a hundred dollars to an Elder to do basically the same thing. So I've been telling people a hundred dollars isn't gonna cut it no more, tobacco and hundred dollars, because again now they were dividing the tobacco into little pieces instead of one pouch to get six or seven little Ziplock bags or piece of cloth tied with it. That to me is totally disrespecting the initial encounter of what these Protocols are.

So for an organization they should be willing to pay. For Zoom for instance, a lot of universities have been contacting me to do Zoom and I'll do Zoom for an hour but I'm going to charge five hundred dollars for that process. And they say okay, they're willing to pay that because again they have a lot of funding available to them, and they also send the tobacco and they send cloth in the mail and sometimes they send gifts also, just something for the house or for the family. I feel that's an adequate response to the Protocols. So when a person is doing this, especially if they’re connected to an organization, then they should. I think it's an insult if somebody’s offering you a hundred dollars from a multimillion dollar corporation to take the time out of their lives to address a certain question.