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Liz: I'd like to acknowledge that we are on Treaty One territory, the traditional gathering place of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene people and the traditional homeland of the Métis people. CARFAC has engaged in a research and consultation initiative to create an Indigenous intellectual and cultural property resource guide and toolkit for the visual arts sector, similar to the one that was done in Australia.

We aim to provide respectful Protocols around the use and protection of First Nations, Inuit and Métis visual arts and cultural material. This includes information about who has the right to reproduce, present, and reference traditional and contemporary images stories and symbols. This toolkit will be shared on our new Indigenous Protocols dot Art website, which will include these podcasts, case studies and other materials that'll be available for community partners.

Today we have with us Marjorie Beaucage. Marjorie Beaucage is a two-spirit Métis Elder filmmaker, artist, activist, and educator. She is the land protector and water protector, a pipe carrier, a carrier of stories of ceremony and the Buffalo council teachings, which is Métis law. Born in Vassar, Manitoba to a large Métis family, Marjorie's life work has been about creating social change, working to give people the tools for creating possibilities and great relations. Whether in the classroom community, a campsite or the arts, Marjorie's goal has been to pass on the stories, knowledge, and skills that will make a difference for the future. For Marjorie story is medicine.

Thank you for joining me today, Marjorie. So we're, I would like to talk about, the Buffalo Council teachings, which is the Métis law and how Protocols are reflected within that and how artists Métis artists in specific, would be able to use those Protocols within their own work, within their own stories and their own teaching.

Marjorie: That's a big one. It is, I've been thinking about this a lot, and about, you know, the Métis laws. And I think it boils down to of the first law, the main law, is self-governance. And that's one of the hardest things to do, govern yourself, discover new stories to govern everything really. And, so that's what the, well, was that the heart of the, of the Buffalo Council and organized our lives for survival and for ceremony and relations, you know, in that, in that council. And, I guess the most important things are the relations, like the getting connected and the best way to do that is through story and ceremony and being out on the land. I mean, those, that's how we live. That's what sustains us. That's what has sustained us forever. So, that's what I understand. And, there's lots of different ways to, there's all kinds of stories.

So there's different, I guess, Protocols or for, for different kinds of stories, because they're not all the same. Like if you're talking about teaching stories, the Wasagajack stories, you know, where the trickster stories or whatever, then, you know, those can only be spared from the first, snow, until the frogs sing. Like that's the law for that.

So then, and only people who have earned those stories or been given those stories have the right to, to share them. So I'm not one of those I, I am and I don't speak Cree. So, I guess that's the other thing is that most of the Métis stories or traditional stories are in the language of people that they're with. So it'd be Cree or Ojibway or from Michif or French, but it's a. It's still it because it contains, the language contains those vibrations that are not in English. And those are really important part of story. And even, I know some, I submitted, a work to, for example, to Hot Docs and they wouldn't show it unless I put subtitles on it and I refused to put subtitles on it because I wanted people hear sound of the land of the language and, so they didn't choose it because of that.

You know, it's like those things they just don't get in terms of languages and, you know, following, and not trusting, you know, my intention as the creator. I, you know, I had a reason to do it that way. I've been experimenting with voice. You know, for a long time and trying to find ways to interpret or translate without those conventions that are in film and video for particular. And so I've been, I mean, I've been trying different things over the years, to honour that. That's one thing that I wish that they wouldn't just see English and French as the languages and, that they would recognize Indigenous languages as languages of the land that we're on. So, that's...

Liz: I think that brings us to a different piece of about the Protocol. So Hot Docs in their protocol was it had to be English and French. And yet, the producers of moving image and visual arts are not necessarily English and or French. And like you said, they don't want to have to have the colonized languages used that way. And I think part of what we can do with our Indigenous Protocols research that we're doing right now is to better inform galleries and festivals about our own Protocols and how those Protocols and not necessarily having to be in English or French.

Marjorie: Yeah. So that's, that's one piece of just, you know, thought about. The other thing about the story is, so there's also the historical story, the stories comes from a particular place and, those stories that have earned, like I said, are, have to be given to you and then you always have to acknowledge the source of that story when you tell it.

Liz: What would an example be?

Marjorie: Well, Rougarou let's say, and Métis stories. Different communities have different versions. So if it comes from Lebret, it's different than the one I was told as a child, it's different than the one Maria wrote it's different. But everybody had to you know, in a sense have that permission, to tell that story or where they got it from, or where it comes from. And the other, the other, well, yeah, that's, I mean, that's how I understand it anyway, that acknowledging that relationship that you have to that story.

Liz: And so you were gifted this story and does that mean that you can gift that story to somebody else? Like if somebody came to speak to you about that particular story. Could you share it with them and then they could then share it again?

Marjorie: Yeah. I mean, if that's what you choose to do. I mean, I did, I told the Rougarou story to some grade threes here in Duck Lake and we made a video together about it and, you know, and then because they were in it and with me in it, like they own it now too, it's their story as well.

Liz: And how old were these kids?

Marjorie: Grade three, like eight, nine years old. They were so sweet. It was so fun. It was one of those culture days projects, you know, at the Duck Lake Museum with the grade three class. So.

Liz: Oh, that must've been so exciting for them.

Marjorie: It was, they felt like little movie stars when we had the premier, you know, [laughing] in the school.

Liz: And so now each have their Rougarou story and they can share that. And I guess then it also keeps the story alive?

Marjorie: That's right. And also they'll have their version of it when they tell it right. Because stories aren't static. That's why like with the Oral Tradition, you always working with the energy of the people and the time and the place that you're in. So, it changes, cause it's alive, it's a living, living story. And even the language that you use depending on the audience, right that's there like the kids. So you kind of talk to them, you know, the way they understand.

Liz: That must've been so much fun.

Marjorie: Yeah. Is all, I saw on my, I put it up on my Vimeo page. If you want to watch it. With the special effects, because a lot of the things that we tried to do, like they wanted to do all this stuff, but like we only had two days. So, but we did make like a moon out of out of a pie plate covered with tinfoil. Drew some, I had this little animated, for the computer, we drew some images because we didn't have them all, but it was fun.

Liz: And is that a good age to be sharing the stories, so that they can then take it home and share those stories as well?

Marjorie: Stories work, no matter how old you are, because I, the way those stories go, you remember, and you get what you need out of it. And it varies according to that, according to that. So it's, like I said, they're living things. So, they work in different ways for everybody and depending on what you're living and what's going on.

Liz: One of the conversations that the Advisory Council for the Indigenous Protocols, project has had is that this will be a living document and living because the Protocols are changing. As are, the generations have changed. So those that have come out of the community and not been back to the community or those that were, you know, part of the sixties scoop, and don't have a connection, how those new connections can be formed. And those changes within that.

Yeah. So I think it's really a really exciting time, but also really challenging. To be able to, I guess, find also Elders, artists that you can have these conversations with. Like how, how would somebody know to contact you? You know, I mean, I know to contact you, but how would, you know, if there's a young filmmaker out there that wants, that wants, and has heard snippets of a story and wants to know the, the real story?

And not know that you can't share it during the summer because you know, winter is our storytelling time. Like those simple Protocols that I think we've been surrounded with and that assumption that everybody knows. The community knows that winter is this time. And we can share this information. I think, part of this document that's being produced with permission to share stories. Have artists approach you, to learn about Protocols within the Métis community?

Marjorie: Not specifically, Métis. I mean, there's lots of knowledgeable Elders around here. I was doing more of that when back in the nineties, I suppose when we were all working with, you know, around cultural appropriation and around stories and everything that with the alliance when we started out. And, and so, I haven't, been that active about it.

I have conversations, I mean, there are some young artists, you know, like a few other Métis artists that have come to me for specific things with the film and video stuff. The reciprocity, that's another principle that comes from the Buffalo Council. And from, that I find with stories is really important as well, like that giving back, if you got that story, it's not just for you. If you're a storyteller, you have the responsibility to give to the people. I mean, that's you job. And, to give it to the community first. I mean, that's, that's, what's supposed to happen when you make a work or a family knows that goes back to where you got it from.

And, I was to honor the place where the story comes from, and I was really upset when, Tasha Hubbard's film, you know, from about Colten Boushie, We Will Stand Up, that the NFB and didn't get it and do that. And that, that story should have been shown first and North Battleford, where the story came from, not at Hot Docs and other festivals before it ever even got to Saskatchewan if this is where it belongs, this is where it should have been shown first, back to the people where that story came from, you know, And with NFB, like I know Tasha didn't have no say, didn't have no power over it. They just do their thing and want to have prestige and recognition. That's more important to them than the story of where it comes from. And I was really upset with that.

Liz: So what would be one of the ways then that we could use this document in the website to inform the NFB about what this Protocol is and why this Protocol is in place?

Marjorie: Well, it looks like it's coming from another worldview, it's not the colonial worldview. So they don't understand the values in that worldview, like the self-governance or the reciprocity or the respect that, and the responsibility to give back. Like they just probably, even though they might've heard it, they don't get it, or they don't really need to change, like they're the boss, you know, of their documentary stories. Right. That's why I never made a film with a film board. I own my own self and my own stories. And there's no way that they're going to tell me what I'm going to do with it.

Liz: And so was the film ever shown in Saskatchewan?

Marjorie: Yeah, it finally did get here. Yeah.

Liz: And how was the community around that?

Marjorie: It was tough because there's still, it stirred up a lot of the old, the feelings about when it happened and the cord and everything, so there, but. Yeah, it did help the conversation to go a little further, I think in some places.

Liz: Well, I think that's a really interesting point, regarding the moving image and where the stories are coming from and where they should be shown first, because there's so many, Indigenous film festivals now and they ask for screenings. And that's how you get into the festivals.

Marjorie: That's a colonial hangover thing. I mean, it's not our way. So a lot of our festivals, they it's, it's like ImagineNative. Like they want to be TIFF, but we're not TIFF. We're never going to be TIFF. We're never going to be Hollywood. We're never going to be all of those things. And that's not why we're doing these stories.

And you know, I've been saying that for. You know, 30 years and you find them finally starting to hear me a little bit, you know, like two years ago I was, I had a retrospective, at ImagineNative. I had my work, I'd never been chosen there before. I submitted it and it was never shown and it wasn't, I wasn't one of the cool kids and it wasn't, you know, like full of what would be, whatever. But you know that wasn't, the vibe then. And now they're starting to recognize. The important, what we were trying to say about story and language and land. And I see more and more of that being integrated in the way that the young people are working. And they're asking more questions about that and, and following more their truth in that regard. But it's taken 30 years, but that's how long, you know, I've been taking firms and, we didn't have media before much. Of our own, I mean, there, weren't very many of us practicing and that's why we got together and tried to figure out how we wanted to do oral tradition in a contemporary way.

So we, I didn't follow the conventions of documentary and tried to do more creative storytelling ways. That was true to our way. And, so that's kind of been interesting and now I just got, the Indigenous Art Bank in Ottawa, just got eleven of my videos. I couldn't believe it. I submitted two, I didn't know that there was a limit or anything, and I hadn't heard nothing back for months. And then all of a sudden I got this email, like the jury chose eleven. I said, "What?!"

Liz: Congratulations. That's really fabulous.

Marjorie: I'm glad the story are out there because they're still relevant and they're still contained some of these teachings, I suppose, that I was trying to implement, I mean, the way that I was doing my work.

Liz: Well, I think it's really interesting with the Indigenous knowledge, rights and the Indigenous cultural practice. How those that have been out of the community are submitting or not going back to the community or sharing stories that they may not necessarily have rights to, to use. Yeah. So I think it's that shift is on its way even more so.

Marjorie: Yeah, I think, I think I've seen some of that, but it's like, you know, those stories don't have power if they're not done in the right way. So it's like people who sell medicine, you know, that medicine doesn't have any power anymore. Money has the power, but that medicine doesn't have the power because the intention of the one who picked it, you know, for sale, it's not the intention of that medicine.

So, I just say, well, yeah, it comes back to you and you know what? It doesn't have any power because it wasn't done with the right intention. And I mean, intention is everything. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to, you can make mistakes, but it's what's in your heart. It's what you're in your mind towards where you're going that makes a difference, in the story and impact of that story. Move forward and to change things. That's what stories are for they're transformative. And when we share our stories, then we help each other. We heal each other.

Liz: That's so exciting. Congratulations on the sale. That's really fabulous.

Marjorie: Yeah, it is. Good time too.

Liz: Have you had any challenges about some of the stories you've shared that would fall along or outside of a Protocol?

Marjorie: Not really. I had one video that I made for the parole board. That's the only time I had, a problem, a legal problem. I had permission, I always get permission and find them all of that stuff for, for my stories. But this one, this one was a parole hearing, a community parole hearing in Wasagamack. And, they all signed including the, the main, character like that was on parole, or asking to be come back to the community, but it was. I didn't give permission for it to be shown on ATPN. I don't even know how they got it or, I never, I never found out, but they saw it on TV, you know, on ATPN and then they were really upset.

But they had, I didn't plan it for broadcast, but it didn't say that it couldn't be broadcast. But I, so they, they got upset. And so they, you know, wrote me, lawyer wrote me this letter. But I gave it to the parole board and they took care of it. Cause I had all the paperwork. Right. So it didn't go anywhere, but it was, it's one of those things, you know, and ATPN should not have done it without my permission.

Liz: And so is that done through a distributor?

Marjorie: I don't know. I don't, I don't recall how it got there, but anyway, yeah.

Liz: That's interesting. Yeah.

Marjorie: So I don't know what was the question? Oh, well, if I've been. Cause, you know, the, the ones that I did with the community, they worked with me on it. I mean, I always work with, with the community. So like the Innu one in Labrador that has their wolverine story or the Rougarou which I got from my family, but there's nothing. I don't put anything in that will get me in trouble [laughing] or that could come back to me. No.

Liz: But that, that's also another part of the learning process for, you know, for emerging artists that are not from a community. You know, how do they engage with that? And if they even know. What they can or cannot do with specific stories or images.

Marjorie: A lot of them know or don't know or don't care. you know. There was a young filmmaker from up north here that put, Wisakedjak and Wendigo in the same story and I thought, holy, you know, that's not right. And, and she got all this acclaim, you know at ImagineNative and everything. And, and I'm thinking. Where did? So I was feeling really uncomfortable with it.

So when I saw her here, she was, they were on a panel at the university. And I approached her to ask her, I said, like, who, where did you get that idea that you could put both of these characters in the same film and then, and you know, create you this dystopia that doesn't exist in our world. And you're using two of our most powerful creatures to do it. And I said, that's not right. You know, that's not right. And she said, well, my uncle or my grandfather or whoever, but you know what I said, it was okay. And I said, well, okay. I mean.

Liz: Yeah, but I mean, that's another piece of it. So there, the festival didn't know that those two couldn't be together. There was no, you know, they just saw it as a contemporary story. When, when these two characters would never be together in any story.

Marjorie: No. Well I think festivals and galleries, or art institutions need to have a council of Elders, to consult when there is these questions, you know, these, what these traditional stories when they come up, because how else are people going to know? If they don't have that ongoing learning and consultation. So that they can begin to understand, because if you're not exposed to it, you don't know. But you can't stay ignorant forever and be in those positions.

Liz: Or use the ignorance as the excuse.

Marjorie: Yeah. That's no more. That's no more. Yeah.

Liz: A council of Elders. I think that would be really powerful and to have access to a council of Elders would be amazing.

Marjorie: Yeah. I mean, it's enough of the big senior artists and Elders in the arts to be able to do that in all the disciplines.

Liz: Well, I just want to thank you so much for all your time today.

Marjorie: You're most welcome.