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Liz: So welcome to our CARFAC Indigenous Protocols toolkit podcast. I'm Liz Barron and I'm the program manager for the Indigenous Protocols project. I have with me today Camille Georgeson-Usher, who is a Coast Salish, Sahtu Dene, Scottish scholar, artist and writer from Galiano Island, BC, which is the land of the Penelakut Nation. She completed her MA in Art History at Concordia University, where she worked to prove the impact of the performing arts and building confidence and leadership amongst Indigenous youth y learning to talk embody and embody discussions about safer sexual practices. She's currently a PhD candidate in Cultural Studies Department at Queen's University, and is also the director of the Indigenous Curatorial Collective. Welcome Camille and thank you for joining us.

Camille: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about this.

Liz: So, the Indigenous Protocols project started last year, and a group of it had assembled in Regina. And can you tell us about the process you went through and looking at where to even start with the idea of the Protocols, and how that conversation took place?

Camille: Yeah, I mean, It's always difficult to know where to start with these kinds of things. And I have been involved in a few different conversations outside of this one in relation to intellectual property registries, etc. And many of the meetings that I've been in about it have come back to what is the place that we need to start from? Like what is the biggest issue that we're facing? That our specific community is facing, or that you know we need tools for or whatever it might be. And I, I honestly feel like the meeting in Regina was so long ago so I'll do my best to remember how it went.

But it was just a really great kind of series of events that we, a group of, you know, very different practice folks came together from across the country to kind of talk about what the issues that we're seeing in our own communities. And so I really came there as the representative for the Indigenous Curatorial Collective, and the Indigenous curatorial community. And so my kind of way of thinking about these things has often been in relation to the practices that institutions have in relation to Indigenous arts professionals and how, like a toolkit for these kinds of conversations would be really useful in those spaces.

Yeah, I think that's kind of where I started from and that was my perspective, with the meetings, but also the perspectives that I brought was as an urban Indigenous person, that it's often hard to come to these conversations from a nation specific kind of way of thinking. And so, just kind of thinking about how they’re so many Indigenous creators that didn't grow up in their communities and don't have these very specific Protocols and ways of creating that you might get from growing up in community. And that's something that I really wanted to talk about and influence with this group was that that's a very specific kind of separate community I suppose.

Liz: There is a larger dialogue around how the urban Indigenous, including, not just First Nation but Métis and Inuit that have not been to a community or have been in an urban center their entire life, and are not necessarily using images from their community, but kind of using images that reflect who they are, as, as a people rather than as an individual. And I think part of this document in the idea of the Protocols can help with that. Being from an urban space. So, in your, in your practice of being an artist curator, is there that like, is conflict between as an individual versus as a people's?

Camille: I would say so, like, I didn't grow up in my community. Very long story of why but colonialism is the short story.

Liz: Yes.

Camille: And so being, you know from many Coast Salish ations. It is really difficult because it is such a, an appropriated artistic practice from the West Coast, you see, formline designs across the world with people that don't know the Protocols of making them and what it takes to earn the ability to make those formline designs and, you know, to make that artwork. And so that's something that I've kind of seen from afar, and it's something that even though I didn't grow up in community, I feel so strongly that the respect to earn this kind of creation, practice is very important, even though I know that I probably won't get it anytime soon.

But it's, you know, something that I feel needs to be addressed. You know a lot of people are working to address this through his group we're trying to figure out what that looks like, you know, that we have authority over our own art and who is able or not able to make it, who is able to gain a profit from the work that our family's ancestors have done for centuries. And so I think that that's really kind of where I came from. Not that I have the very specific practice from my community but that, you know, I know the conversation that needs to happen. And I, you know, having that kind of connection in the institutional world, I suppose is kind of where I can bring it in.

Liz: Well, and that's a really good segue into institutions, so the Indigenous Protocols is looking at how First Nation, Métis and Inuit as artists use those Protocols within their own communities, but also how it could be a tool for institutions in the fine line between copyright presentation exhibition versus that idea of art, just being able to be produced, and not looking at the history of the artist. And so within that institutional space. Do you think that our conversations around Protocols will help?

I'm looking at you know a tier two and tier three institution, not necessarily the artists run centres because I think artists run centres have a stronger grasp around what the artist creates and what it exhibits without, without censoring who the artist is and what the artist is making, as opposed to the institution, not knowing, or understanding what that difference is between what the artist creates and if they're even allowed to use that creation.

Camille: The thing that I have noticed recently and it's not specifically just in the creation of, you know, artwork or the presentation of it. It has really been the kind of quick fixes that institutions or that I have noticed many institutions do, which is they will include one Indigenous voice for all Indigenous voices. And when it comes to like, let's say my specific communities, that one Coastal Salish person it's assumed that can speak to all of them, let alone the intricacies of each Coastal Salish Nation. And that is, that is a huge issue like you know the Protocols from the West Coast are very intense for a reason, because it's something that, you know, my family, you know, fellow kind of Nations across the coast, feel very protective of and for good reason. And so those very specific Protocols, need to be put in place in the lands that they're on and I feel so strongly that we need to start seeing Nation specific Protocols on the lands that institutions are located on.

So whatever that looks like it's going to be complicated it's going to be messy, and I know that many institutions will not do it. But, you know, just even in the way that people come together, as humans, there are very specific Protocols, on every land on how that happens.

So a very simple example is how land acknowledgments are done. It has become a universalized thing to do. And it's kind of the same everywhere, even though you know it'll reference different lands. But even that Protocol, it's very different in different places. So how can, how can something like that, that is maybe a little bit more tangible than a massive intellectual property project, but you know something that each person can do every day to acknowledge a specific Protocol to your specific place that you live, and that you walk through how might that come into play. And that's, that's kind of what I'm really interested in talking about, I suppose. Who knows what institutions will do with that but that's where I at.

Liz: Well when you talk about the land acknowledgments I mean that's a really easy in, with a major institution is something simple enough that they could engage with it on a regular basis. And I think the universities were really in the forefront of putting land acknowledgments into place before the larger institutions that are presenting Indigenous work. And of course there's been a new hiring policies out, and you know they're creating these Indigenous spaces and in these institutions and using that land acknowledgement. But again it comes from, in that space that land acknowledgement is different for each of the persons that would be welcoming them to the land because they would be also from possibly a different land.

You're in Ontario, you know, so, although you're from BC, you, it's that's quite a, quite a distance to cover in a land acknowledgement. So we're really hoping that the Protocols will be, you know, one of those starts of this toolkit. In the same form as a learned acknowledgement it would be something that they could, you know, take and apply for artists that they have coming in. Hopefully, you know, and recognizing, Oh, you shouldn't be doing this work we don't have permission to show it. Without it becoming pan Indian like there's a real, that whole pan-Indian kind of blanket to put over things when they don't want, when the institutions are not able to actually fulfill and do the work required to be able to implement the Protocols.

Camille: Yeah, and that's something that I think Protocols are very good at, but also this kind of influence that nation specificity and, you know, very specific ways of doing things, to make sure that we are not Pan Indigenizing, anything is hard because they're, you know, they're our conversations were having kind of a larger purpose.

So let's say Missing and urdered Indigenous Women, that is something that all Indigenous women are in together, whether we like it or not. And that is a place where pan-Indigenizing is for a bigger cause and is for something that is beyond any specific Nation, because it's all of us. It's all Nations, it's all territories that are being affected by this. So in that case, I think that it's again very complicated like most things that Indigenous peoples face is complicated and there's many layers.

And again, with Protocols I feel like there are very specific things that we need to consider when it comes to individuals who are not raised in their Protocols, but who are also being invited to work in institutions to do their practice. Still Indigenous artists, still, you know, have to carry that. But do also carry different sets of Protocols in a different capacity so I am really curious how that conversation is going to come in. Maybe for myself.

Liz: Yes. No, I think that'll be a really one of the successes I think of the, the Indigenous Protocols project at CARFAC is taken on. And, and again, it's invited so many artists, academics and curators from across the country. Indigenous you know First Nation, Métis and Inuit, to be able to provide those perspectives.

And hopefully, you know, those that are in an institution, there are some on our committee that are in an institution can be at the forefront of using the Protocols within their institution, as our shiny example like that one space that could be, this is what we're doing this is and this is how we're doing it. This is how we brought it into our organization as a whole, rather than just the Indigenous section. Yeah, to not to not keep it all separate but to put it right, together. I don't think it's decolonizing because that's a whole other piece, the idea of decolonizing, and I don't think there's one way to decolonize an institution. But I think the Protocols can be used as a tool within an institution, even if they're not in that forward motion of view, decolonizing.

Camille: Yeah, I mean there's so much work that needs to be done there and I think that having a series of Protocols or whatever you want to call it. For me rotocols is a very kind of strange word to use. But I think there is a place that we are coming from with this being that institutions museums, specifically, are really the epicenter of colonial activity in that they still hold so many of our artifacts, and that they were the place that looted goods went to, and that still are being kept.

So, you know, there's a huge history that needs to happen and that needs to be acknowledged through this. It's not going to happen overnight, obviously, but I think the way that it will come into play is even just knowing specific ways to interact with the artifacts that they have is a start, inviting people into work with collections. All of that is another thing and needs to happen.

But then, the way that they interact as an institution with those objects is something that I think we really need to focus on, how they're presenting them, when they're presenting them because they own them and institutions often feel like they can do what they want and they can put it in a show if they need to. But I think that's something that, you know we're trying to figure out as a group to even consider is, as you know, before you choose that object like has it been in ceremony this year. Or like when was last time. You know, if not, then maybe it shouldn't be presented to the world, to show all the great things that you're doing. Yeah.

Liz: Well, and not just showing to the world, but how much you've stolen. Because it, yeah, you're advertising everything that you've stolen from the communities, over the years and, yeah. That's really a, I mean, because it's a whole other piece about the Protocols and when when pieces can be shown and how they can be shown and who should be handling them and how to even invite that person that could handle it, how to invite them into that space, and how to make them feel comfortable in that space.

I'm not sure we go that deep with with this first phase, because again it's a living document and we are looking for, you know, further engagement from the communities themselves, First Nation, Métis and Inuit what about what else needs to be included in here. And what would be the benefit for them as an individual artist and as one that is within an institution, what would help them in their job in that institution being to be successful?

Camille: I asked that question every day.

Liz: And I think we'll be asking him for a while, like it's not, it's not going to be quick, I don't think. But at least this is moving forward, like we're moving forward. We're getting, you know, out of the deep end we're coming up to a sandbar, and hopefully we'll get to be on the sandbar for a little while, while we scope it out to see about, you know how close can we get to shore.

I think that would be really important as part of the toolkit that resource, not just for the artists themselves but for curators as well, because the curators are the other piece within this, we have the artists we have the institutions. And then this is also to support curators in being able to work positively with artists and to know that artists can use that image or has, you know, the intellectual property around that image that's theirs. It also can't be given that, if the artist is from the community that they have permission, which, you know, people can make assumptions is that because you are from the community you would have the rights but that's not necessarily true either.

Camille: Absolutely.

Liz: So I think the document will you know there's these three major pieces within it the artists, the curator, the institution, and how we can help them with this, you know, one tool in moving forward.

Camille: Yeah. I mean like the place that I am coming from with the Indigenous Curatorial Collective, we have been advocating very intensely to institutions to engage in better practices, not just with us. You know we are asked to do free labor all the time in with the idea of partnership, but it's never a partnership that benefits us.

But the thing that I've been really advocating for, is that the reason why we started as an organization was because Indigenous curators just wanted jobs. Period. Now there are too many job calls and nobody really trusts the institutions that are doing the job calls, so people aren't applying, You know, young folks are taking these jobs at alarming rates and the retention rates are going down because it's just not a good place to work and people don't have the tools to do, you know, the kind of day job that they need to do and the decolonial work that is often piled on to this.

And so I think if any of this is going to work we need more, not even just Indigenous we need BIPOC people in all positions in all institutions across the country if we are going to see any type of change, accessibility, inclusion, equity in these spaces, and to include, you know, a toolkit on intellectual property would have to shift a significant system in the institution. And we need our communities, leading that work. And so we need to be hired, we need policies to change in the institution so that they're protected in those places. You know, we need HR policies to actually reflect different cultural practices. We need board of directors that represent the communities that they're representing as an institution, and until that happens, I don't see anything that is implemented in an institution ever changing as much as they want to try.

Liz: Well, it's an interesting point as well because it seems to be that it's Indigenous, BIPOC, typically 99% women, that are asked to do all of the work. All of the work that's required to come into an institution decolonize it, be that person in the front face, all of the activities that have to happen around that position and then they load all the other responsibilities on. And boards, you know, it's free. You're asking us to do all of that work again for free. And it just seems that. Yes, we need to be in these spaces, but again yes we need to be remunerated for all of our experience for our knowledge, for our, the gifts that we get from our families.

Camille: Food, eating.

Liz: Yeah, There's such, there's such a split between those, and I think if we could have one institution, embrace what the Protocols, this particular document are going to do. And of course it would also have to pay CARFAC fees, because again, that's a whole other issue about artists being paid and being paid well because those are minimum rates and you can pay as much as you like. And you should be paying more than the minimum rates. But we need that one institution to sign on and go, you know what, we're going to we're going to implement this project we're, we're applying for our own money our own funding. We're going to bring a team in here it's going to last two years, and we will be that model for every other institution. We just need one of those.

Camille: Tell me who they are, I'd love to meet them.

[laughing]

Camille: I'm ready.

Liz: Yeah, I think we all are ready for that and I think it would be really interesting you know for that one institution to come up and go pick us, we'll do this, we'll do the work that's that's needed to get this done. But it's also the other, you know, MASOs that are out there the Museums Association, the you know the directors, the National Gallery Directors Association, you know like I think it's about, not necessarily getting in their face, but getting on the agenda. We need to get on the agenda. And this is what we're doing and we need you. Because you're there to come to us and say, we'll be that institution for you. Wow. That would be awesome.

Camille: Oh, it's what I dream about.

[laughing]

Camille: But I also feel like that would need to be. I mean, again, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of all the things that would need to change but if that were to happen, it would be not in the interest of the institution but in the interest of the community. You know, and they're kind of just coming back to the fact that we are often asked to partner, but we are never asked if an institution can partner on one of our projects, for example, it's always us partnering on the institution's project for the benefit of the institution. While that request is transactional for us, because it's our financial resources in our labor to help with that.

Liz: Yes.

Camille: So I'm just thinking about how all of these things in relation to institutions and how they're implemented. If they really are working in a way that different that it will kind of take away that transaction that only benefits that one institution. So if that institution is really doing it well, it is for the community that they're doing it, it is not for the benefit of their institution, and it wouldn't be something that wouldn't be a solely protected resource that they have, or that they've done. That it could be something that would be shared in a more accessible way for other institutions or for other communities. Because it isn't for the institution, you know, like, I don't.

Liz: No, I like that idea. I'm going to have to ponder that.

Camille: Me too.

Liz: So, and before we all wrap up, tell me some of the projects that the Indigenous Curatorial Collective is working on right now.

Camille: Oh my goodness. I was just talking about this on another call. I feel like I've been talking about it so much lately. Yes. So what we've been doing. We really changed a lot over the pandemic, and not necessarily changing as an organization but we just reacted very quickly to what was happening. And, you know, we were in Regina, trying to plan our next gathering that was supposed to happen in June, obviously was cancelled. Nothing is happening this year. But, you know, as we were there we had a couple of days to that we still had to be there. And, you know, our major partners closed, said that they couldn't do it we said that we couldn't do it. They're just sitting there in our hotel, like okay what do we do now. You know, theoretically we could have just relaxed, but we didn't, we were online, just kind of checking in with people in our community, our friends, our family all this kind of stuff. And the moment that museums and galleries closed we saw an influx of people posting about how they've lost contracts, how their jobs have been postponed or how they've been laid off, how an exhibition is being pushed to three years from now and maybe that curator won't see a gig in three years.

And so our community was, you know, posting about all these things and sitting there we were just like we need to do anything. And within the span of a couple of hours we said that we needed to do something and I emailed the board very quickly and was like we're gonna do something, do you approve and all of them are like yes it is yes.

So we started a program called Curating Care, where we would get people to submit two minute videos, they could talk about what they do, who they are and how they bring care into the work that they do. And upon submitting a video we could send an e-transfer, you know, the next minute. Like, so that they could go buy food for their family.

Liz: Wow.

Camille: And so that's kind of what started what we've been doing this year, and that transpired to the Inspirit Foundation, getting word that we were doing this and then they became partners with us on our project, so one good example of an institution that came to us to support our project, and asked if they could help, you know, so that we could give people more for the honorarium and give it to more people. And so that was amazing. I've been saying recently that it like went viral in the Indigenous art world, which were anybody else's like, oh, not viral, but for us it was like a lot of people heard about it.

Um, but then after this so the funds were depleted. You know, we don't have a lot of money but we gave everything that we had to this. And then the Canada Council contacted us and we're like, we heard you did this thing with Curating Care. Can you do it like times ten with another project, which was called community cares and it was a partnership project, so we had a couple of organizations help us to get the word out, but it was us that was distributing money that we, over the pandemic we have distributed, almost $475,000 to individual Indigenous artists, curators, writers. So that took up a lot of our time

Liz: That's fantastic.

Camille: Our website needs some help. So call out to all the artists out there that are listening. We needed a designer. [laughing] But yeah, so there and are on our Vimeo page and, yeah, that's kind of what we've been working on.

But what we're focusing on from this is just how to create programming for BIPOC folks more broadly, so that people of colour in the art world are not affected as much by the loss of momentum with galleries and museums closing and, you know, less funding all of this so that we can use our meager platform to uphold voices and practices in whatever way that we can.

Yeah, so that's kind of something that we're really trying to focus on and making sure that we're providing tools to BIPOC arts professionals so that when we are able to go back to work, but we have a community and a network of people that you can get support from that you can get resources from. So you know if you have that kind of icky interaction at your institution that you have this group that you can talk to and be like, Look, this happened to like, I don't know what to say. Should I not send this really snarky email back.

[laughing]

Camille: Yeah. That's it.

Liz: Well no, that's really great. I didn't realize it was that large of a fund that was being distributed that's really great. And then it's also really great to have all of those videos in case anybody's looking for curators or artists there's this brand new library that's been created. It's amazing.

Camille: I know and it's like the thing for us as a team, like we have become a family during this time, like I say that in, you know, I don't know what I would do without ACC staff. We check in every week you know every few days and just to see how we're doing as humans, but just this kind of idea of care was so necessary in this time like there's so much stress and anxiety and apprehension to what the world is going to be so I think if we can, you know, take ourselves out of it, even for a minute, that's, you know, just watching how somebody loves what they do so much.

I think it's just so beautiful to me, and it has been something that our team has really brought into the way that we carry through our work as humans, so how that care comes into everything that we do. So Curating Care is like because it was so incredible. We're trying to figure out how to make it happen every year. I don't know how it's gonna happen every year but it's gonna, something's gonna happen every year. Just cuz, I think a lot of people can relate to it and, you know.

Liz: Especially because each province has its own at this time, lockdowns, pandemic rules or anything and everything that's been going on varies depending on the province that you're in. So I think it's really important.

Thank you so much for giving me this much of your time. I really appreciate it. So thank you, Camille, I want to, I really appreciate all the information that you shared about the Protocols and how they can be used within institutions with artists and curators, and we'll be posting this on Indigenous Protocols dot ART website.

Camille: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you and trying to talk about Protocols and all of this.