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Liz: I'd like to welcome all the listeners to our podcast series on the CARFAC Indigenous Protocols and resource guide. I want to acknowledge that we are on Treaty One territory, the traditional gathering place of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene people and the traditional homeland of the Métis.

CARFAC has engaged in a research and consultation initiative to create an Indigenous intellectual and cultural property resource guide and toolkit for the visual arts sector. This is similar to the one that was done for the Indigenous artists in Australia. We aim to provide respectful Protocols around the use and protection of First Nations, Inuit and Métis visual art and cultural material. This includes information about who has the right to reproduce, present, and reference traditional and contemporary images, stories, and symbols. The toolkit will be shared on the website, Indigenous Protocols dot art. And it will also include additional podcast interviews, case studies and other materials that'll be available to our community partners.

Today I have with me, Christine Kiroac. Christine Kiroac is a Winnipeg-based Métis artist, writer whose interdisciplinary projects are a negotiation for dis-placement, non-acceptance and belonging. Fearlessly making work through a lens of personal intimacy and experience. She draws audiences in using humor, the familiar and the unceremonious. Her skills include visual arts studio, professor of drawing and painting at four universities in North Carolina, United States, and the University of Western Ontario.

From 2013 to 2015, Christine was the creator, owner, director and curator of three American art fairs, New Material, Basel Miami, Verge, New York and Multiples out of Chicago, Illinois. She has participated in multiple residencies at the Banff Center, Vermont Studio Center and has received grants from the Winnipeg Arts Council, the Manitoba Arts Council, Canada Council for the Arts, the National Film Board and the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation. So welcome Christine.

Christine: Hello.

Liz: So, we've had a conversation and one of, around the conversation of being able to use images within a works that were going to be presented. And I wanted to talk to you today about the project you're working on, Hangar Three, Theater Three, and that's, about the different issues that are coming into play the legal copyright issues, culturally sacred, traditional rights and how that all intersects, about protocol and in specific your practice, can you give us an overview of the project?

Christine: So, I think about objects and experiences as metaphoric in my practice. And so, I met my biological mother in, when I was 26. I'm now 52. And that experience was wrought with difficulty because of, she was, she is Métis Cree. I was born in Swan River, as she was as well. And, and I'm, I also have an Irish background as well. I'm what I call a hybrid. So I.

She was, she's very involved in the Aboriginal community, addictions counselling, and she moved to BC when, right after I was adopted, right after she put me up for adoption. And she's been living in BC since, for over 50 years now, in Vancouver and in Victoria, and is very involved and invested in her Métis culture. And knowledgeable, in addition to that. So when we met, she was very excited and kind of bombarded me with a lot of information that well, her intention was to share, but it was very overwhelming as I had no idea that I was Aboriginal in any sense or Métis at all until sort of the moment that she told me that.

So it was very foreign to me, to find that out and I had to then sort of back up and figure out what that meant to me. And if it didn't mean anything actually at all to me, in the end. So, now all of these years. I've made work that talked a little bit about that topic throughout my career, but it hasn't been a mainstay sort of subject matter in. And I think part of it is even sort of feeling defiant in that there's this expectation that, oh, well, you're Aboriginal. So then you must, or your Métis so you must then not must, but, here is the tool set of all of the cultural expressions that you can work from. And I'm like, no. So, I had to come to this on my own, in my own practice at my own time.

And I worked very serendipitously. So, a few years ago, I had this piece of information, that my biological mother had done. She shared this with me years ago, had painted executed and her partner, Frank, a Bill Reid mural for the Habitat conference, in 1976. And in Vancouver, on Jericho at Jericho beach. So there is a, there's sort of a whole history about this site and this. It was an international conference on human settlement.

So it was international artists from all over the world came and she, and her partner who was a sign painter, we're asked by the government, by the organizers to execute this Bill Reid mask design that he had done for one of the airline hangers that were there. And I knew this piece of information like years and years ago that she had painted this huge mural. It took four years. I mean, sorry four months to do. And, did you want to interject?

Liz: Sorry. I just had a question on, so there was no information about why or how Bill Reid, contributed the mask painting? Or like did the government go to Bill and he produced this piece and said here do something with it? Like was there...

Christine: Well, he apparently, he was, let me see. He was invited on, let me read this here. So my mother was hired as an assistant, but when Bill Reid was asked to commission a Haida design from one of the hangers. So he was asked to design something specific for the shape and size of that building. The shape of the hangers was very similar to a big Haida longhouse. And so, the design lent itself to the shape of the hanger. So it was made specifically for this event and for, for the space of the activities and events that were going to happen inside that space. So that was the only mural that was painted. So he designed it for this conference and the site, cause it was a large compound.

And then she was hired by, along with a lot of other artists to work on, on various parts of the site, painting signs, the carpentry, the planting of plants, everything that was hired by the, by the government to create the site. So I'm assuming, she said that the forum was funded by the federal government and all the artists hired were paid the same salary. Whether it was electricians, mural artists, fabric, artist, plumbers, lawyer, carpenters, carvers. So, some of the participants in that where the Buckminster Fuller, Margaret Mead, Mother Teresa. So it was kind of a, I think it was the first international conference by the UN of, around the subject of human settlement and housing. That, that there was.

So, that was years ago that she had told me this little piece of information, sharing that she had painted this huge mural. And I never thought really anything more about it. And then it wasn't till just like last year that it occurred or two years ago that it occurred to me, this particular image there's 10,000 images of this event, various, you know, shots of all of the things happening at this particular event. But this one image that I had found actually on the internet as a small, thumbnail, and it really struck me. And there were certain reasons I responded to it, sort of formally, conceptually, metaphorically, symbolically.

And so that's the piece that I wanted to invest in. And I've been working on a lot of drawings that take years to actually make inch by inch. And it's an investment of real time into, into these pieces. And this was a moment I wanted to somehow from a distance invest in. And I guess symbolically invest in, in my heritage, in this way that I could do at this moment. Does that make sense?

Liz: Uh, invest in the heritage, how? Because.

Christine: Well it was a way, I could step forward, into this very sort of protective culture. In a way that I knew how through drawing, that I could also even then use to bridge a very estranged and tense relationship with my biological mother, by reaching out to her and asking her if she had this image. And if she had a higher resolution of this image and that sort of project I had, has created a bit more of an open communication between us that we haven't had in a long time. So that she's able to share her experience, and, but at my speed and on my terms. That makes me feel a little, not so overwhelmed, but a little bit more in control. Does that make sense?

Liz: So you're using this Bill Reid piece within one of your own works of art?

Christine: So what I'll, I wrote a grant that incorporates four large images, and this is one of the four and each image is a sort of representation of a moment, of a connection. One is San Francisco Fog, which is, I've spent a lot of time, it's one of my homes in San Francisco the last over 20 years. Another is the apple tree in my biological, in my adoptive mother's yard. And, and she's, she grew up in New Brunswick. She's Acadian. And, and another is a snow mountain in a parking lot here in Winnipeg. And the fourth one is this, was this image that I'm going to replicate, as a large 10 by 12 foot colour pencil drawing.

So when I say investment, when I draw something over such a long period of time. And I've done so with, another project called, Les Feuilles (Mortel), which is, two drawings of kudzu, the vine kudzu, that are 10 by 12 feet that took me four years to do. So, I do an actual investment of real time into these, like as a nine to five job, into these images.

Liz: So this particular image that, that will have the Haida mask, it's actually going to be on the hanger, or is it just an image that you're doing of the mask itself?

Christine: No, the mask, the, this is the image that I'm really interested in because the hanger, along with the crowd, because it is that that sort of metaphorically talks to speaks to me about sort of the physical distance between that culture and myself as the drawer and also, the audience in the end and the space between me and, and the audience and the, and that Haida mask. It's not so much that it's Haida, it's just representing sort of a culture in, in general more for, for my purposes. And I know my mother is Cree and she was painting a Haida mask and it was on, what was the territory, sort of complicated.

I can't remember where I wrote. So my mother is Manitoba Métis Cree, executes the design of a BC Haida artist, along with a Caucasian sign painter, on Musqueam territory. So, you know, already there is a once, twice, thrice, fourth, fifth removal, and I'm interested in those stages of removal because not everybody has this, this direct connection to this culture and Métis people are part of that, of which are hybrid people. They are part of something else. And part, the part, Aboriginal. So the elements also formally in the picture really attracted me. Bill Reid used black, red, white and blue, which are Haida colours. But also when you look at the photograph, they're replicated in the environment exactly as they are in that, in the, in the mural itself.

So there's this deep blue of the sky. There's the, there's a guy in the foreground with, holding a red helmet. That's very red and there's, this wonderful Aboriginal, man with the long hair, and he's like with the fringe jacket right out of the seventies, and he's looking right at the camera and the white man is looking, he's from behind.

And then there were a collection of people and a diversity of people that are all standing outside. It's an outside. So aesthetically, which is what I really, you know, am drawn to, it made it made a static sense to me is as, as well, and that the irony and the serendipity of the moment, and that mural was something that I felt I could invest the years that I need to in order to make this type of, make this type of image. So it corresponds with my feeling of how I'm trying to slowly baby steps approach the idea of this identity that I didn't, I didn't grow up with. And so, I had, even just in the last couple of days, I've been conversing, on Facebook with, with my biological mother, talking about this image, getting more specific sort of information. About who took it. Who has it? Who does it belong to? Who has the rights to it? And so it's a, it's a piece, it's one of the images that the Vancouver, City of Vancouver archive now owns the copyright to so, yeah.

Liz: So then this process goes to the City of Vancouver to gain information or permission to be able to use it?

Christine: Well this is where it gets, you know, because I think you could follow these as a contemporary artist. I think you can follow these rabbit holes, you know, too far in a way. And, and I am all about respecting sort of, and following, the trail. But this is not an original art, this is not an art piece. It's a picture of an art piece that was destroyed after the, after the event, all the hangers were just destroyed, along with this mural by the government who wanted to reclaim the, the site space in Vancouver Island that it was on for whatever reasons, I don't know what they are.

But, so I think if as a contemporary artist, if you get caught in the weeds of all of this kind of these kinds of Protocols, you don't actually make anything because it can get so complicated. So, if it was a piece, it would, I think it would be different, but this is a moment of what is called a not, a no clear head. That's what I call it, no clear head, meaning this is a picture with obstructions and that it is not from directly straight on it's from three quarter.

And so I think I, and I mean, in terms of whether I should be allowed to, or not, I think I should be because I have clear intentions. I have backing and funding. I have followed that trail of breadcrumbs as far as I think I can.

Liz: And so in that process of like when we're looking at, in Traditional Knowledge, intellectual properties of the artist. So although he, Bill Reid, was commissioned to do this hangar work. He provided an image, but somebody else, your biological mother and her partner, actually did the painting, which was, they actually did the painting, which was then photographed by. Thousands of people being there. So everybody has their own memory and moment of that particular space.

And then of course now it's destroyed. And so that the actual images of the event are owned by the city. So even in that whole process that you've gone through with, in a reaching out to your biological mother, her partner, the drawing, the images, and it's very respectful of Bill Reid's work being, you know, being from the Prairie's, which is a whole other, you know, concern issue related to land and how the acknowledgments work within that land piece.

Christine: Do you think that needs, I mean, that artists should adhere, like contemporary artists. You think there should be that Protocol on ideas? Because I don't, I actually really feel like you can't, if you start to try to control people's ideas, artists' ideas and fit them into these Protocols, it, I think it's, it's a losing battle.

And so to say, I was on a, I had applied, like I said, I applied for years between the Aboriginal section and the section for general artists and was batted back and forth all the time about what, you know, how Aboriginal do you have to be in order to get A, B or C. And like, are you Aboriginal enough? And it depends on who you ask. And even to Aboriginal people, Métis people are not, you know, truly, you know, truly accepted.

Liz: So when CARFAC National brought together the advisory group to have these discussions and look at developing, you know, a resource guide and toolkit around that idea of Protocols and Indigenous, knowledge rights, and Indigenous traditional rights. The idea though, yes, contemporary artists can have their own interpretation of things, but this goes into looking at specifics.

So as an artist, in a specific, if you as an, a Métis contemporary artist, saw the Bill Reid image and just use the image. And then the other side of that is within the territories and Nations and communities, everybody, they all have a design, a story, a heritage around that. And I don't feel that I have the right in my own Métis community to be able to just start copying bead designs or using a traditional element within a contemporary work without obtaining that permission, per se.

Christine: Well I think that the missing element that needs to be really acknowledged is intention and my intention is not to just take something of somebody, unless I am trying to say something about something, unless I am, if it's a commentary about something and you know, in Manitoba, I think it's very, it's very difficult to critique or, or say, you know, or talk about the Aboriginal community or, or politics or anything disparagingly.

And I think that you have to allow artists to talk about their experiences, good or bad, regardless. And I think there's a very tight, strong hold on, on that, on speech particularly here. And, and as an artist, and I know, I mean, I understand what you're saying. That's not my, it would never be my intention to do that.

So I'm, I'm speaking like, okay. So when I applied for this grant and I was told, at Manitoba Arts Council, that because the mask for this piece, that, because the mask was not. Well, I was a Métis Cree and the mask was, and the artwork was in BC, I therefore, full-stop, no discussion could not use it period. And, or would not, should not be allowed to. Disregard any of my, you know, reasons that are very personal and very meaningful to me and very valid, it didn't matter. So my concern is that Protocols cut out any of this kind of discussion of possibilities that are more complicated. Not just stealing. That's sort of more cut and dry. And I think clear. But when artists want to talk about things that cross boundaries over the country, or in other cultures of, you know, around the world, if you start putting this, this choke hold on ideas and concepts. And that's dangerous and a slippery slope. But we're talking about two different things here though.

Liz: But so there's also a couple of larger issues and that is residential schools, that is the Sixties Scoop, and that is people that have artists, Indigenous artists that have not been in their community and don't have that community connection any more. So I understand there is that process in place because it is, almost a reproduction, but it's only a reference to that particular piece within a larger scale, because the true story is about the audience and your biological mother.

However, you still gone through the whole Protocol process and have recognized, Bill Reid's work as his own intellectual property. And I think that's the key. If you were to just recreate, or use a Haida image within your own work, then that is an issue. I just don't see how artists that are not from a community can be using and engaging imagery from that particular territory.

Christine: Well, I guess it's also how one thinks about community and because I am not someone from a tightly knit community. That I'm sort of coming to this from the back door in a way and not, you know, and so my, how I think about things is different possibly than, than perhaps where you're, where you're coming from. And I understand where, where you're coming from and agree.

Actually, I followed that Protocol for my own, for myself. I think this history of Aboriginal-ness is so young, also in Canada and it's fresh and it's, the hurts are still and the wounds are still fresh. And so I tie this a little bit to my practice in that I come from a very personal place in my practice, but then I have to, sort of become practical in a sense so that I can actually do the work and not be emotional about it.

And that's sort of where my biological mother and I clash and that she's extremely passionate and, and has a lot of pain and hurt from our, my adoption. And I'm over here going well, I'm making work right now and I, I'm not plugged into all of your pain and your hurt and, and to heal your wounds. I'm trying to make art, that is touching upon that, but they're two different disciplines to me. They're two different things to me. I have to let go of being so emotional about things in order for me to actually get stuff done. Is that? So all of these larger things, I have a mirror to my own smaller experiences that are on a micro level. They're happening and mirrored at a macro level in terms of other, a lot of people in this country. And I've always sort of fought for the right of a Métis person who didn't, doesn't have this rich culture that they can be proud of, but rather as experienced this through the back door in a way.

Liz: So Christine, I want to thank you for joining us today. It's been a very interesting discussion and I think it really leads to having more discussions like this. So thank you so much.

Christine: You're so welcome. And I look forward to those other discussions.

Liz: Thank you.

Christine: Thank you.