Currently Listening

Liz: The Indigenous Protocols project welcomes Theresie Tungilik. Theresie is an artist and activist that hails from Rankin Inlet, Nunavut. She creates wall hangings that depict the life of the Inuit, influenced by her parents' lives, who are part of the nomadic people of the Eastern coast of the Hudson Bay. Their clothing styles, events, seasons and kajaanatuq landscape are presented by her work using wool thread, cloth, animal skins, and her own hair. Along with her wall hanging Theresie has also created illustrations for Inuktitut books. She's currently the advisor for Arts and Traditional Economy with the Department of Economic Development and Transportation, the Government of Nunavut since 2003. I would like to welcome you Theresie to our podcast.

Theresie: Thank you.

Liz: So the purposes is of our Indigenous Protocols research is to provide practical and current information about Inuit Protocols and intellectual property and cultural expressions in a way that responds to the needs of the Inuit and the communities that are revitalizing, renewing and refreshing their respective systems and structures in support of arts, culture, heritage, and of course, language revitalization. So Theresie, can you talk to us about some of the Oral Histories for Protocols within your community?

Theresie: Yes. The Oral History is among Inuit a very old, old one. It just wasn't established just in the last century. But it's something that because we were an oral people and we didn't have any pens and papers and things like that. So everything we learned was by memory and also by the teachings went from different levels from children onto adolescence to adulthood. And these were done. So in a way, so that children were kept innocent as long as they could be. And, one of the Oral Traditions, that we, the Inuit abided by was the, some of the things that they made, because everything that we used was handmade and every clothing we wore was handsewn.

So it became important in a way so that, when a woman was a really good seamstress and she had her own patterns, it was up to her as to whom she could pass those patterns to, she did not just, if anybody came and said, can I, can I use your pattern? In a certain part of the amauti or the clothing. The person couldn't quite copy her unless she gave the consent. And this was followed a lot and especially, with, I have a little girls amauti pattern that was given to me by an Elder. And before when I asked her, if she could do a pattern for me for a little four year old girl, she said she would, but she told me I am not. I am not to share with anyone. I am not to distributed it. She is giving to me in trust that I alone will use that.

So there's that intellectual property already being a practice. And this was perhaps not just recently. It has been practiced for many, many years and. It also came to tools when the men used to make their own hunting tools and they would make, fleshing and cutting pattern uluit for their women. If someone wanted someone's, particular pattern, they would need the consent of the one that first made it. Now, when we talk about these things, this was followed a lot and, because the word of mouth was law. Once it, once a Protocol was set. So, it was, it's like, you have to make sure that you respect the person who, of whose work you, you know, the copyright, it still goes way back to when Inuit, we used to make their own things all the time.

So when you look at a living culture that had no stores for 300 miles, and you couldn't just go to a store to buy a saw or a ulu or, or a harpoon head, these were all handmade. And a lot of them were passed down from family to family or to generation to generation. And also the patterning of that particular item was also followed because a lot of the. The children who were growing up among their family, were being taught right from the parents. And so therefore these are the parents now that are passing on their knowledge onto the younger ones and learning never stopped.

It was always continuous all day long during a day and each and every, every child. Even had responsibilities throughout the day, you know, if they're from the age 10, to so on and up, and then they can be responsible for fetching water, you know, and looking after younger children and that. And, I think, Oral History, if it could be understood and allow we had already been, living by, I think it would make it so much easier for Indigenous intellectual property to be, to be documented and to be, to be so, so that it can be educational, so that it's informative so that the younger generation that did not quite grow up with this due to residential schools can now regain that again.

Because our, I really feel that since our culture, the Inuit culture was always living in the family, teaching one another and, passing on the knowledge from. So on until on, but they always, sometimes they specialized on what they taught because, some Inuit were better at astronomy than they were at you know, doing making things. And so it fit the personality of the person who was living around them.

Liz: So, I have a question then on, so we'll use the example of you being gifted, a pattern to make for the four-year-old, when that's gifted. Is there also like a instruction on how to do it or is it just shown once and you just take that or like, how do you work with it after it's been given to you?

Theresie: Well, I've already been making adult amauti. And so therefore I just didn't know how to make the smaller one for a child. And so when, when this pattern was gifted to me, that pattern was what I needed. But I already know how to put it together.

Liz: Okay.

Theresie: But, if I were to say, she is no longer around and so therefore I don't have any right to share it or because I did say yes to her, I did give her my word that it would be kept only within me. Then, let's say I wanted to make, a different cut on it or something. Then I would go to her next of kin, who would be her daughter. If it would be all right to make that change, because that really is not my pattern. It's it's the author is her it's Mrs. Santina, not me. Who, who owns that. Even though it was given to me, it is rightfully not to be her pattern.

Liz: So is there any time then? So if she's gifted the pattern to you and you can't gift it, does that mean the pattern ends?

Theresie: I can keep using it and using it to make more and more, but I cannot share.

Liz: Right. So then it ends?

Theresie: It was her wish. And I had to, I have to abide by it. And there was another incidence where, a friend of mine from another community was going down to medical travel. And I went to see her at the airport. And during the time she is waiting for her airplane to land yet another plane lands in from a small community. Out comes a woman wearing an amauti, carrying a baby on her back. She takes my arm and she goes, "Theresie, who's that?" And I said, I don't know, because I didn't know at the time.

And she, she was, she was really peeved because she recognized her amauti, the pattern be being used by someone she didn't even know. And that's why to keep peace these kinds of things were put into place. Not just recently but long, long ago. So because we still needed permission and we still needed consent. And you know, if you wanted to make a change on anything that you would have to go to that particular person and asked them if they, if it was all right to make that change.

Liz: And did this also translates over for. All of the carvings that are done?

Theresie: Yes, we are encouraged to learn. We can copy it at the beginning. But then we are encouraged to come up with our own ideas, to come up with our own style, to come up with our own ideas and, and to be creative in our own being. And, otherwise all carvings would be looking alike and, you know, there will be any distinction as to who, whose beautiful artwork.

But I really think about the fact that when Inuit were the first to make the kayak and they were the first to make the amauti and big organizes, world organizations like the world intellectual property organization. Refused to say that they were first made by Inuit simply because there was no author to it, you know, and yet the world knows. The Inuit were the very first ones to be wearing amauti made out of either caribou or sealskin because that's all the material we had. And Inuit are very adaptive. If you give them new material, they will find a way to make something out of it.

And, I think this is something that really needs needs attention too, is that I remember when the electrical tools first came out and some of the art collectors were questioning. Is it still considered Inuit art? Whose hand, you know, powered that and make the carving, not the power tool itself, but it was made by the hands up of the, Inuit artists, you know? And, it made me look back at, even made me look back at the time when the Inuit were introduced to different soapstone and that, and is it still carving they wondered. Yes, of course the person who is making is making their artwork is an Inuk. You know, it doesn't matter how, how, what you use to get to the end piece. It matters whose hand it was made by, you know.

I think, some of the, some of the things that we should now be advancing to is, perhaps looking at universities that might be interested in maybe perhaps, you know, using the injury, traditional knowledge and. And looking at Inuit, who, who we, as Inuit, who we consider professors because they are experts, but to other people, they are considered no one, because they don't have a piece of paper saying that, you know, they don't have a diploma or anything like that when actually they are the best at what they do and they're the best at teaching it, then they're the best at talking about it. They're the best at teaching about it.

And so I would be very interested in perhaps, even making a recommendation on, how to give or recognize, Inuit, producers of clothing or art or whatever it may be. But because in Nunavut we don't have any universities that could, you know, get you to that point. We just have really, really, really good people who are really, really good at art and really, really good at making things. But sometimes they, are not know simply because they don't have a piece of paper that they are, you know, they are a professor at some of the Inuit are best talkers about Inuit culture, some of them just talk through their art, some of them talk to their songs, you know, and these are the ones that we have to be able to recognize.

And, you know, when, when we know so much about, snow, let's say. People make fun of us that we have 80 words of snow. No, we don't always have is, the different steps and the different conditions and the textures that we have names for each, each one. Like when you say [Inuktitut], that means the first, snow that comes down. And when you say [Inuktitut], that means the snow is packed already. And if you say [Inuktitut] that means the snow has been formed, like a frost facing the north, north west, you know, and you can use that as a direction, you know, it's your compass, just like the inuksuit used to be our compasses.

They used to be like a. Especially, if you were traveling in a fog and you came across an inukshuk and you look and you recognize it by how it's made, you know exactly where you are already. And, those are the kinds of things that, I feel has been exaggerated upon, but they were definitely very, very useful in the olden days when people travelled by foot, by dog team and by, you know, kayak or, or by boat. And, today. They seem to be just decorations now, but that's what they, the inuksuit we're meant to be in the olden days.

Liz: And how are the Oral History shared now? So when I, you know, did the introduction, you also draw for children's books. So are those images that are in the children's books, also from an Oral History?

Theresie: These are stories that were written by communities. And I read it. And then I put, I put a image that visualizes the story. That's what I do. That's what I had done. We do need, there has been a lot more, children's book coming out in Inuktitut, which I really, really like.

Liz: And do those share some of the Oral Histories? They're now putting it into writing?

Theresie: Some of them are, some are like, more about hunting or things like that. And, I try to match the season they're talking about. And so, I really enjoyed that.

Liz: And so where are the Oral Histories today on the copyrights for the clothing, the materials, art pieces?

Theresie: It is still living among the older ones and it is still passed on to the daughters, but not everybody is, is seamstress anymore, like when we used to live in nomadic camps and we would just be the family. You had to be Jack or Jane of all trades in order for the family to survive, in order for the family to be warm, in order for the family to keep learning.

And this, knowledge is being passed on down to the younger people. So let's say a sealskin was caught. The man cut it, he cut it in a way, but it was the woman who fleshed it and took another layer of skin off and then they dried it on the ground stretched. And then, after it had dried, it needed to be softened and then it's made into clothes.

And because we are a culture and a people that believe that everything we caught from an animal should be used every in every which way it can be without wasting it. So all the leftover pieces from sewing, the leftover sealskin are then given to the younger girls. So they practice stitching. So they practice, patterning on their dolls. So therefore nothing really was wasted at all in the olden days.

Liz: That sounds like a great experience to be able to pass down that knowledge.

Theresie: Yes. I tell you, it was really hard to start learning, to make, really fine stitching, like when you're five.

Liz: And so with, with this Indigenous Protocols project that CARFAC National is working on, you know, we do hope to be able to have it in a language and translated, but also to keep that Oral History alive, what are some ideas that could take place to be able to share this information and bring that, I guess, Oral Tradition into this, you know, formal document.

Theresie: Yes, things have changed. And our time we, we Inuit always change with the time, you know, and you know, I was born in an iglu now, you know, having a Zoom meeting with you, you know, they it's, you know, we go along with the times as they come. And I believe what we need to do with the Oral History, Inuit history is now is to document it.

Because we are no longer a oral people. Yes, we are oral people, but we don't teach everything by oral anymore. We teach with material things we use. The schools now use, you know, the children going to school on that, they're learning to read and spell and all this stuff. And they're, their learning environment is so different from what it was before. And so therefore I think it's very important that some of the Oral Tradition.

And I think there's been some books that have been written, you know, by some of the, previous leadership Nunavut before. But I really think that for, to keep the culture alive. The Oral Tradition now must be recorded so that the young Inuit know they have rights. The young artists know that they have rights, that the older generation also know that they have rights. And this is the new world we live in. So we must bring that up as well. This is my thought.

Liz: So the music, is music in that same realm of this is my song and I'll share it with you, but you can't share it again. Does that still happen within the communities?

Theresie: Yes, because the intellectual property among Inuit is both tangible and intangible. And so, one of the Elders told me that, from Igloolik, his name was [Inuktitut name]. He said when, when Inuit had made songs, like nothing was written, but all to memory, and these are stories of their lives or somebody else or something of an event that happened.

And so, he said that if, if someone, if he had a song, okay, if he had a song and a younger person wanted to use some of the words that he used in his new song, then he would need permission from the first song writer. And if he got the consent, yes, he could. And even the sound, you know, higher or lower tones, you know, this is intangible. These are stories up, there on their own.

And so he told me that, it was never allowed to copy someone else's song and just use it without their consent. You would have to get the permission from, from the songwriter or the song maker at that time, because we had, you know, we didn't have a writing system. Everything was done through memory.

Liz: What happened with the young woman at the airport that was wearing a copy of somebody else's work?

Theresie: She actually, the lady did not approach her. She was too pissed off.

Liz: And how would, and how will it get so far away? So you had a pattern, but it was coming from a whole other community that came into town like how obviously an Oral History was passed and passed and passed, for her to be able to have it.

Theresie: Because this was a newer generation. You know, post-residential school generation. They don't have, they didn't have the same teaching as they did in class. Then when they, when we left for nine months of the year, you know, and three months is so short to teach everything because you still had to hunt, you still had to do caribou skins. You still had to make clothing nothing stopped in life for Inuit.

Liz: Well, thank you so much. This has been very valuable. I'm really looking forward to our next steps with this project and hopefully we'll be able to come up there.

Theresie: Yes, that would be awesome.